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Role Playing => Role Playing Discussion => Topic started by: khoras2 on August 13, 2005, 12:08:41 AM

Title: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: khoras2 on August 13, 2005, 12:08:41 AM
The Perfect Role Playing Game or What's Wrong with 2nd Edition AD&D

[Note: This is an old article that I wrote prior to the release of version 3.0 and the d20 system].

I am on a quest. To find (or create) the perfect role playing game...

I have played AD&D for almost two decades. And although I love the game, I have to admit that there are some serious design flaws in its fundamental structure. Most players I have met agree with me. The game is flawed, but it's the game we all love and grew up with and so we just work around the holes. We have all seen the endless parade of supplements to the game such as the Wilderness Survival Guide, Unearthed Arcana, the Complete Series, and a few million DRAGON Magazine articles. Lots of these supplements contain valuable additions to the game and new material. However, a large chunk of it is simple fixes and patches for a system that's never really worked that smoothly. It's just too easy to poke fun at AD&D. I can think of a few rules that make no sense and situations that contradict reality. It's time we stopped putting patches on top of patches and just rewrite the core rules.

I've looked at other game systems too. Some games are meant to be quirky and fun and don't even try for realism (Paranoia). Some games are so concerned with sticking with the movie or TV series that spawned them, that they willingly sacrifice realism and playability (all the Trek stuff, Star Wars, etc.).

Why not have one realistic gaming system that covers all genres? A game system that follows reality. Well, Steve Jackson tried that with GURPS. And I have to admit that GURPS is the closest thing we have to a universal gaming system that actually works. The only problem I have with GURPS is that it's a bit too complex. Especially for neophyte gamers. I like GURPS a lot and it has some great ideas. It just needs to be simplified and streamlined a bit. Also, I would love to see GURPS use a base 10 system (d10's and d100's) rather than d6. Then I think GURPS would be the "perfect role playing game".

Sword swinging fantasy is by far the most popular genre. Science fiction is the next most popular. However, in truth, genres really shouldn't matter. All role playing systems are trying to do the same thing – to quantify and reflect the happenings of reality. That is, real people in real situations. Of course, you might say, none of this is real. My wizard is fictional. My magic broad sword is fictional. Well, of course they're fictional... but within the context of suspension of disbelief, we allow ourselves to believe that they are real. When you are role playing, the events are supposed to be real with real consequences. Anyway, the point is that a gaming system should be realistic. If it can happen in reality, it should be covered by the game.

I would like to see Dungeons and Dragons become that kind of a game. A game that is real enough and flexible enough to handle any situation, any circumstance with ease. If a starship were to land in front of your party of adventurers, you should be able to get embroiled in a battle with laser wielding aliens and not miss a beat. The system should be able to keep up with the characters, no matter what they do.



This said, I'd like to look at a few of the core problems in AD&D. Specifically, this is what I think is wrong with AD&D and could be greatly improved.


Since I wrote this article, Wizards of the Coast has released versions 3.0 and 3.5 along with the whole d20 system and everything that goes along with it. What I think of those systems will be the subject of another forum article.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on August 14, 2005, 01:32:34 PM
I remember reading that article (or something very similar) a long time ago one of the first times I was checking out Khoras.net. It was one of the things that made me want to check out the rest of the site, for some reason.

Personally, I've never really liked DnD. In my opinion the best commercia rpg I've ever tried is Alternity, which is now out of print. It's simple fast, and yet still capable of fullfilling all the needs we've had in our gaming group. The only thing missing is a better combat system, but I'm working on that. The rules we now use are a heavily modified version of Alternity, with Fantasy skill set, Perception as a stat, not a skill under Willpower, and a lot of other modifications. I'm working on a new combat system that's maneuver-based like a mix of Mike Mearl's Iron Heroes (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_IL) and The Book Of Iron Might (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BOIM), both published by Malhavoc Press. Also I'm trying to add some of the aspects of the combat system from The Riddle of Steel (http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/), which has, by far, the best combat system of any fantasy rpg ever.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: sid6.7 on August 15, 2005, 11:54:09 PM
you may laugh but i prefer the 3 original booklets for
traveller RPG...its basic...clean..simple...and generic
you can make fantasy,modern,cowboy type RPG's
with it...

Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: khoras2 on August 16, 2005, 11:09:15 AM
I remember those old Traveller books. In fact, that was the very first role playing game I ever played. There will also be a place in my heart for Traveller. But for pure game mechanics and structure, I really like GURPS. Very well thought out system. Although I have heard good things about Rune Quest, Riddle of Steel and other RPGs out there that I've never read. So much to look at, so little time!  :)  One of these years, I'm going to have to finally sit down and write my own role playing game.  ;D

Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on August 17, 2005, 04:10:18 AM
I never really like GURPS. Basically I think the machanics of the game are okay. But I don't like that whole "I need to be better at archery so I'll make my character ugly"-concept. I know that that's probably not the way it's meant to be played, but it's the way it's written. Or at least it felt like that to me when we played it.

As for The Riddle of Steel... Is has the best combat system I've ever seen. Nothing even comes close, in my opinion. But the rest of the game needs a serious overhaul. The magic and spell system seems like a good idea at first but when you get down to it's just impossible do anything with it. Also, I didn't like the way they make you prioritze at the beginning of character creation. Basically you have the letters A through F (or thereabouts) and you have to place one letter in each of the categories that your character's made of: skills, race, stats, proficiensies and so on. F is bad and A is good, so if you placed your A in stats you'd have a lot of points there, but if you put your F there you don't have as high stats. If you put a low letter in Race you're only allowed to be human, and you prioritze it highly you get to be a faen magician (or something like that). I don't think these areas should influence eachother like that. But the game does have some good ideas. Maybe the second edition will be better  :P
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: sid6.7 on August 18, 2005, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: David Roomes on August 16, 2005, 11:09:15 AM
I remember those old Traveller books. In fact, that was the very first role playing game I ever played. There will also be a place in my heart for Traveller. But for pure game mechanics and structure, I really like GURPS. Very well thought out system. Although I have heard good things about Rune Quest, Riddle of Steel and other RPGs out there that I've never read. So much to look at, so little time!  :)  One of these years, I'm going to have to finally sit down and write my own role playing game.  ;D



cool dave, but khoras is so much like an RPG already! i love the generic way you've made it
and i promote that theme in my own world too. i've started a rpg called vsrpg, a clone of
traveller i called it vsrpg "very simple rpg" everything is done with just 1 6 sided die...
give it a try its fun...BUT SLOW...even trying to keep things simple you gotta to try
and cover everything...which can bog you down...but you kow..you've been building
this cool world for a few years now!...BTW did you get my mail donation okay?

Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on August 19, 2005, 12:33:47 AM
Oh gosh, Yes, I forgot to mention that.Sorry!  I did get that donation. Thank you very much. It was a total surprise. I loved it. Thanks!

It gave me an idea. I am thinking about putting a donation button on the site. I want to keep Khoras free and open for the world. Always. But if any gamers out there feel that Khoras is worth a small donation to cover the costs of keeping it online, then I want to give them that opportunity. So, I think I'm going to provide a simple "Donation" button somewhere. I'll get around to that eventually.

Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: sid6.7 on August 21, 2005, 05:47:15 PM
what i look at is does an RPG cover all types of systems or is it just
focused on one...fantasy,sci-fi....etc...i really like the idea of
generic RPG's i tend to avoid even looking at focused ones....

i wanna see a dragon fight a guy with a laser carbine, or a cowboy
lasso a bugbear, or villagers with pitchforks attack a tank...it makes
things a little more interesting...for me....

dont get me wrong i'm playing traveller right now and the campaign
i'm in is very sci-fi...but i tend to gravitate towrds gerneic places...

i dont have alot of rpg experince though maybe my ideas will change
i've only done 3 d&d games, 1 marvel hero game, 1 ringworld game
and 3 traveller...so i'm really a newbie...
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on August 22, 2005, 02:37:53 PM
I agree. I also like game systems that are multi-genre. A system should be able to handle dragons, laser carbines, tanks and pitchforks. that's one reason why I kind of like GURPS. Even in sci fi games, you eventually go planetside and then you might be dealing with animals, primitives, locals with pitchforks, etc. So, you need to be able to deal with the low tech stuff even if you're usually running a high tech sci fi game. You can mix just about anything in GURPS.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on August 23, 2005, 05:22:45 AM
I guess it's more practical for an rpg rules system to be generic than to be focused. Nevertheless (is that really one word?) I tend to go with focused ones, because they've often put more work into the particualer genre than a generic will have. Of course it doesn't hurt if the system can also handle other genres, but in my experience the focused ones tend to be better.

I mean, how many times do you really get a medieval knight against aliens with lasers, or a zombie with a shotgun against an elf? I've never found myself in a situation where I needed the system to be able to tackle a whole different setting than the one we were playing in. And even if it does happen, I can't imagine it's very often. So I'd rather go for more detail. Also, most focused systems do cover all the basics needed to play most genres. Things like sci-fi close combat skills can often be used to cover medieval weapons, psionics can be converted to spells etc. And the other way around (though often with a bit more work).

That said, I realize that many generic rpg systems have very detailed descriptions for a lot of settings (GURPS being one with all the supplements) but generally, in a very overall way, and with exceptions, I like focused ones better.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: sid6.7 on August 28, 2005, 04:26:38 PM
your right kristian, you wont find most RPG's where a knights fighting a cowboy......hehehe
i'm just a person with a warped sense of reality... ::) most focused systems really do get some
great detail and cover all aspects of its genre to make them very realistic. I can't remember the
name of it but i had a boxed version of an RPG (1986?) where it just really covered in detail
medieval europe, i cant remember its name but i think it had a castle on the box front. it
showed how to build castles etc..it was almost as if they had actually gone back in time and
were there to get that cool detail.

from what i see at the stores almost 99% of RPG's are focused there are few that are generic
in nature...i have'nt really done GURPS but i've heard it covers alot of genre's, but when you
look at thier supplements they always seem to be SCI-FI...at least around here..

cool!

Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Delbareth on September 02, 2005, 05:33:09 AM
   First of all, I have to say that I'm positively surprised :). I'm not very aware of the RPG world, news, favorite games and things like that. But I was said that beyond Atlantic ocean, D&D was worshipped like a saint game :). And I'm very happy to see I was wrong, because I don't like this game :-\

   About the difference between generic systems and specific system, I agree with what Kristian said. But I found their is other deep problems. A system is always balanced and adjusted in order to obtain a specific game style (more magic, more diplomatic...). For example, if magic is powerful in the rules, it will make a magic-oriented game (obvious). If you want to build a generic system, you will enconter numerous problems of game balance because of what happens in the real life. The game style we wat is not always coherent with the real life. Then you will be obliged to force upon several points and eventuelly your game doesn't look like what you wanted.
   I don't know if I'm clear because it's not clear in my mind :-\. Some examples can help :
It could be fun to have a world where a guy can bought broadsword and rapier. And their isn't a great difference between the sword era and the rapier era. But in the fact, someone with a rapier will win without a doubt again someone with a so heavy weapon. In a few time, everybody (above all, all players) should buy rapiers and your game will not be like you wanted. And problems are more important if you compare some weapons more different (like spears vs tanks). That's why I prefer a system dedicated to a specific technologic/magic/other level. You know what you have, and you can adjust the balance of the game as you wish.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Delbareth on September 03, 2005, 04:38:30 AM
I would like to come back on some specific points of the David's speech.
Globally I agree with him on most of them. I really think that he points out some basic problems of D&D or RPG in general.

I am fondamentally opposed to the XP system. As David said, it allows to improve skills that were not used in the game. I use a system of characters evolution strictly based on the utilisation of a competence (you say "skill" in english?). Each time you have a success in a competence, you "tick a box" (I don't know how to say...) corresponding to this competence. After a certain time (at the end of a travel, an adventure...) you can try to improve each skill. The number of success represent the chance you have to obtain +1 (over 20) in the competence. For example, 5 successes means 5 chances over 20 to increase the skill. If you pass this test, your ticks are erased and you recommence. If you fail, you keep them until the next test (the next scenario). As each competence is treated separatelly, you only improve your skill in the domain you really use. That's the basic system I found in an old French game. It's very simple, but I have never found it in another game, and I have never found a better system in any other game.

Concerning the HP system, I think that the problem comes from the evolution of the HP max with the character level. But this evolution is the basis of the heroic game style. In a lot of games, max HP (or life point, or fatigue point, or...) are constant. If you are skilled, you have more chance to dodge attacks, but if you fail you will be wounded like a beginner. The blade will cut your flesh exactly the same way.

About situationnal modifier, I remember of a ridiculous scene. I played a young boy (8 years old) and I wanted to put an unconscious guy (90 kg) in a wagon. My DM asked me a strengh test with a modifier of -15 (over 100) only. My character wasn't very strong but I was "lucky" and I succeeded. It was completely stupid :-[. He should have given me a modifier of -60 at least. I often ask to my DM to be generous with their situationnal modifier, positive and negatives ones. Some of them are cautious and stay between -30 and +30 (over 100). In my mind, it should rather be -100 (practically impossible to succeed) to +100 (practically impossible to fail).

That was my 2 eurocents   :D
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Phendar on September 06, 2005, 08:23:40 AM
I used to have an awesome DM. He was fair, open-minded, clever, and yet precise. He had every action of every citizen in a town laid out, just in case we wanted to visit.

.... ahhh... those were the good 'ole days.

  :-*
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on September 06, 2005, 10:57:01 AM
And for those who don't understand that last post, let me explain. :)

Phendar used to be a player of mine, long ago, back when I lived in Ohio. Those were golden years. :)  The early days of D&D. But since then I've moved out to Seattle, on the other side of the country and Phendar and I don't get to game together anymore.

I miss those early years of gaming.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on September 06, 2005, 12:31:46 PM
I realize I may be getting a bit off topic here, but when did you have your first game set in Khoras?
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: blackfire83 on September 06, 2005, 06:32:30 PM
Ahh, I see! So Phendar is sucking up! Not a bad plan. ;)

-Dan
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Phendar on September 07, 2005, 05:45:22 AM
Quote from: blackfire83 on September 06, 2005, 06:32:30 PM
Ahh, I see! So Phendar is sucking up! Not a bad plan. ;)

-Dan

That's one way of putting it :)

I will be the ubiquitous roamer, having the off-handed ambiguous reference.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Maiazuru on March 01, 2006, 11:04:09 AM
I really like AD&D, myself. I've been playing games for two years on friday, and it really allows me to forget the sometimes frustrating job I have, and take time with good friends.

I wouldn't change anything to AD&D. Its PERFECT to me.  :)
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on March 01, 2006, 11:23:13 AM

Yes, I agree. I'm sure role playing is a great escape for all of us. Real life can sometimes get SO frustrating. Especially the day job. I think "escape" is the right word. You can "escape" from real life for a little while and play in a fantasy world - whether it's a book, a web site, a role playing game or a video game - it's nice to get away for a few hours.

Even building Khoras is like an escape for me. I enjoy building it as much as I enjoy role playing with friends.

I know it may seem like I come down hard on D&D sometimes, but it will always be the first role playing game for me. Really. I did a little Traveller earlier, but D&D was the game that I adopted as my own and played for DECADES. Heck, I still play it. I'm a bit annoyed by some of the stuff Wizards of the Coast has done with versions 3.0 and 3.5, but overall, it's still a fun game. :)  No matter what the rules are, if you are hanging out with good friends and fighting some big monster that's REALLY kicking your butt, you can't help but have a great time. :)


Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on March 02, 2006, 02:50:22 AM
Quote from: Kristian on September 06, 2005, 12:31:46 PM
I realize I may be getting a bit off topic here, but when did you have your first game set in Khoras?

Ahem  :D
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on March 02, 2006, 07:40:02 PM
Oh geez, that was aimed at me wasn't it?  :D  I totally missed that question.  :D

Ok, when did I run my first game in Khoras? Good question. I'm gonna have to give you a little history. I can tell already this is going to be a long answer. :)

I wrote the Avisarr campaign in college. That was in 1990. I started writing it (I remember this distinctly) over Christmas break, December 1990. Trivia Fact: The "Avisarr" was the very first piece of Khoras that was ever written. That's the "soul gem" for Draxorith, in the nation of Duthelm. I think the only official Khoras entry for it is under the Draxorith page, in the Ogre Gods.

Anyway...  that first bit of writing soon blossomed into a full campaign that ran through the second semester of school that year. We ran it in TSR's "World of Greyhawke". We had about seven players and, I must admit, it was a blast. Best campaign I had ever run. Then we took the summer off. The truth is that we had ALMOST finished it, but not quite.

Over the summer, I kept the players tantalized with letters about their characters and the campaign. (Yep, actual paper letters... this was back in the days before email had become common).

When school resumed, we had the big final battle and wrap session. I had spent the summer gathering gifts and, during the final session, gave each player a cool gift that was, in some way, related to their character. The archer got a beautiful black arrow, the elven thief got a dagger, the cleric got his holy symbol, etc...

Throughout that school year (August 1991 to May 1992) some one else was the game master. I continued to play, but just as a player. During that year, I organized my notes from the Avisarr campaign and began working on my next campaign - "The Warriors of the Mark". Around September, I started working on a new campaign. I decided early on that I wanted to create my own world. Although I liked the World of Greyhawke, there were many things I wanted to change. I figured it was just time to create my own. (Several of my players were very familiar with Greyhawke) I thought it would be fun for the players to explore an entire new world.

The other reason was that I wanted to be able to write short stories or books based on our campaigns and I didn't want to have to worry about copyright infringement. Many of my notes from the original Avisarr campaign formed the basis for this new project. I started with the Avisarr notes and began working on a whole new world. I worked on it during that school year.

I continued to work on Khoras during the summer of 1992, but also began writing my next campaign. The Warriors of the Mark campaign was written even as Khoras was evolving. When school started again in August of 1992, it was my last year there. I was a senior. I knew I had only one more year of living with those friends. So, I wanted this last campaign together to be a good one. We actually rented a cabin in the woods for our first session. I handed out "information packets" to the players prior to the first night of gaming so they could get a little background on the new world. And it was that night that I unveiled Khoras for the first time to players.

So, to answer your question, the Warriors of the Mark campaign was the first official game run in Khoras. I ran it beginning in August 1992 and it ran until May of 1993, when we all graduated. Khoras continued to evolve while we were gaming that year.

After graduation, Khoras continued. I worked on it, off and on, over the next year. I played other adventures in it with other groups and friends also ran their adventures in it. My friend, Mark Price, often jested with me that I had such a detailed and elaborate background for my stories and novel, but that I hadn't actually started the novel.

I finally began working on the novel in 1995. The novel, various short stories, several magazine submissions and a few poems were written. Khoras was always there though. No matter what campaign we were running, no matter what piece of fiction I was tinkering with, I always ended up coming back and adding a bit more to Khoras.

In 1997, I put up a personal site and Khoras was one section of it. Mark insisted that I change the web site so that it was focused on Khoras rather than just a personal web site. Because Khoras was the most interesting part. And I soon realized he was right. So, later that year, I modified the web site so that it was just an online campaign world.

Khoras has been online ever since. Over the years, it has grown, but the core nations and cities and races are very much as when they were first written. We've had lots of different games in it. Dozens of players have come and played with us. Several people have taken the reins and run their own games in it. It used to be that I would just tinker with Khoras whenever I had some time and inspiration. But nowadays, I try to upload at least one significant thing each month. That's where the Monthly Spotlight comes in.

I never did finish the novel.  :D  But I'm proud of what Khoras ended up becoming. Mark often says that "technology caught up with Dave". What he means by that is, I was writing a background to a novel that hadn't been written yet. For years, Khoras was just a stack of notes and binders and maps sitting on a shelf. It was this ridiculously elaborate world that no one was seeing. And he (and others) often wondered why I put so much effort into a world that was seen by so few. But eventually, the internet and the world wide web came along, and suddenly there was this easy way to share Khoras with other fantasy writers and gamers and... well, everyone. So there you have it. The birth of a humble world.


Well, this was a very long winded answer to a simple question, but I've enjoyed this walk down memory lane. :)



Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Lance on March 03, 2006, 11:58:42 AM
I was about to turn 7 and had just moved to Louisiana... I COUNLDN'T READ AT READ! :P Edit:Wow... What I really meant to say was, "I COULDN'T EVEN READ." Don't know what happened there.... :-[ </edit>

Anyways, on to more important matters.  ;D That is a much appreciated background story, and I must admit, as a history major, I always have a hankerin for anything of the sort.  :)
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: avisarr on March 03, 2006, 12:40:14 PM
Quote from: Bart on March 03, 2006, 11:21:12 AM
So, 1992. ;D

Um... yes... 1992.  ;)  (he says sheepishly)
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Kristian on March 04, 2006, 04:41:11 AM
Indeed it is. Thanks for the story.

I must say, the more time I spend on these forums, discussing Khoras, the more I want to play in it again.  :) Maybe some time soon.
Title: Re: The Perfect Role Playing Game
Post by: Animus on March 17, 2006, 03:00:50 PM
Quote from: David Roomes on August 19, 2005, 12:33:47 AM
Oh gosh, Yes, I forgot to mention that.Sorry!  I did get that donation. Thank you very much. It was a total surprise. I loved it. Thanks!

It gave me an idea. I am thinking about putting a donation button on the site. I want to keep Khoras free and open for the world. Always. But if any gamers out there feel that Khoras is worth a small donation to cover the costs of keeping it online, then I want to give them that opportunity. So, I think I'm going to provide a simple "Donation" button somewhere. I'll get around to that eventually.



Hello David,

Thanks for putting together this fantastic world. It's been an inspiration to my homebrew efforts since 2000, when I found your site (I still have that map you sent - awesome).

I came to the site today and just regiestered for the forums and found this thread. I think that you really need to put a donation button up. I know your doing this for FREE but there are those of us out there who would love to reward your efforts with the simple click of a button :).

Thanks again.