A bit of a conundrum

[tanis]

I have a question, for all you DMs and GMs, though I'll have to give some context first. Despite having been on this forum for years; being quite knowledgeable about the mechanics of 3.5, 5e, Pathfinder, and even a bit of GURPS; and generally loving RPGs in all forms, I still have yet to ever play even one session of a pen-and-paper RPG, of any system.

I've just never had access to a good DM, and I've never really wanted to go to a local game shop and play with random people, though I guess I'd be willing to consider it.

However, I've been trying to get a character concept that I particularly want to play fleshed out in the meantime (it looked like I'd be playing with a friend in the near future, though he's moved away recently, unfortunately), and I'm stuck. Obviously, it's pretty difficult to get very far in rolling up a character with no DM around, and perhaps it's a waste of effort, but I've found it very good for my creativity, so I still would like to pursue it.

But there are some big problems that have kept me from getting too far, one dealing with translating the character concept, and one with fleshing the character out. Given that all of this is meant to be preparation on my part, I was hoping you guys could help me get a better sense of how I should be thinking about this: first, I am very attached to my character concept (I've actually been iterating on the basic premise for about five years now), but it doesn't fit neatly into the classes of 3.5 or Pathfinder, and while I plan to go with a Pathfinder Cavalier because it's closer than, say, a fighter, the whole knight-in-shining-armor thing doesn't fit my CC, and the discrepancy is enough that I'm thinking about using the Pathfinder rules about homebrewing an archetype. My character's more of a mercenary tactician/man-at-arms than a cavalier, and all of the tactics-focused archetypes are focused on bits of flavor that don't line up well with a character that is, at heart, something along the lines of a condottiere. I already have some ideas about how I'd like to go about this, but I don't want to create an archetype that's overpowered, either. What would you allow a player to create? What should I watch out for while designing it? If I have to do lots of tinkering, what limits should I impose on the process?

The second (really? I saw a lot of questions up there. XD) question I have is this: since I don't have a DM to guide the process, I don't have any specific campaign setting, but I have lots of ideas about who my character is, where he comes from, etc. How detailed should I make my character's backstory? I'm concerned about creating a whole petty kingdom and villages, etc. that might be inconsistent with the world this character eventually finds himself in, but I'm also really inspired creatively by the character, and want to go as far as I can without procluding him from actually being played someday. What level of backstory do you think you'd be comfortable with, if you weren't part of the initial process of rolling up the character, etc.?

I know that a lot of this is just guesswork, on your part in answering this as well as mine in asking, and that much of what you'll say might well just be common sense type answers, but I still want to get a feel for what actual DMs would be comfortable with, and any advice that you might have. I also know that, short of actually getting into the details of the character, stats, backstory, concept, etc. it's a bit difficult to give clear answers, but given how long this post is without all of that, I feel for the sake of brevity that I'll have to leave off with that, unless some of you want me to go into greater detail in a later post herein.

Anyway, thanks a lot for any help you can give.

[sid6.7]

I'm with you I have only been in 1 d&d game and 2 traveller games and observed 1 other d&d game in 30 years so I am not real skilled at actual roleplaying...

I would just go ahead with creating your PC and fleshing out his background making him a realistic as possible given your situation. a good DM or GM will be able to insert your PC into his world.
in fact he may introduce plot lines into the game based on your characters background. in the last game I was in the DM/GM did exactly that and it was totally fun for my PC.

[David Roomes]

Hi Tanis and Sid!

Ok, this might be a long reply, but there's a lot to respond to.

First of all, I sympathize with your predicament. I know what it's like to be unable to find a good DM! For the last 5 years, I had been wanting to play and had a couple of good character ideas, but sometimes it's hard to get other players together and finding a good DM is especially difficult. Seems there are a lot of players out there but few people who are willing to DM. That's precisely why I'm DMing the current campaign. I simply could not find anyone willing to do it.

I encourage you find some players and a DM because it will be worth it. Actually playing the game is different than preparing for it or talking about it. The give and take of interactive storytelling that happens around the table is great when you've got a handful of people who are really invested in the story and their characters. So, keep looking. Also, finding other players is a great way to make new friends. In every campaign I've played, there are always one or two people who are total strangers during the first session and by the end of the campaign, we're great friends.

I myself have never walked into a game store and sat down with a bunch of strangers. The closest I've ever come to that experience was playing with a group of total strangers at the Gen-Con gaming convention many years ago.

One method is to find people online and then ease your way into it. For example, there's an interesting website called  Nearby Gamers (www.nearbygamers.com). If you haven't tried that yet, it's worth a go. Great website. Also, I've had players say they got connecting through social media - Craig's List, Facebook, etc.

If you manage to find someone, start off with just one or two people. Meet in person at a coffee shop, discuss the game to see if you are compatible with regards to style and such. Then maybe meet a second person. While it's possible to play with just 2 people (and it's certainly easier on the DM if he's only got one player to focus on), I think that the minimum required to game is 3 people - one DM and two players. This is because when confronted with an obstacle, a problem, an enemy or a puzzle, two players can talk, discuss strategy, commiserate and so forth. And that is where the real magic happens. Players working together. You don't get that with just one player. So, yeah, 3 is the minimum. Five is the ideal number in my opinion.... 1 DM and 4 players. In my experience, that's the best balance between player interaction and the DM being able to keep track of everything.

Let's talk about your character concept. I agree completely that many games (and Dungeons and Dragons is especially bad at this) have limited character classes and rules that prevent you from always crafting the kind of character you want. Forgive me if I'm stating what you already know... I HATE CHARACTER CLASSES. I hate the very concept of character classes. They are an artificial system that impose rigid restrictions and create unnecessary complexity in the game. You should see 5th edition... the creators piled on multiple systems in order to create the illusion of choice. You've got skills, class attributes, feats, special abilities and so much more. I would much rather see a single, simple, streamlined skill system. With that, all of the other crap, including classes, could be thrown out. I'm going to design my own damn game and show them how it's done. But I digress... back to your point.

Many times players find that they have a very specific character in mind and none of the classes do it justice. None of the classes are a good fit. Well, in RPGs, the solution is the game master or DM. In my opinion, the DM is the thing that sets RPGs above every other type of game, including computer games. The DM can tweak the rules, bend the rules, break the rules, in order to make the game a better experience for his or her players. In this case, a good DM would let you build your character concept, exactly how you want, either by modifying one of the existing classes or coming up with a whole new class. I'd probably do that latter. I've done that a couple of times. That's how the "arcanologist" and the "darkwalker" character types came to be on the Khoras website. Both of those were custom classes created because the player had a specific idea that didn't fit into the mold of any standard D&D class. I have nothing but disdain for the D&D rules so I'm always willing to bend, break and rewrite the rules as necessary. Also, a custom class always ends up being a lot of fun around the gaming table. I tend to encourage players to think outside the box and come up with new and original stuff. I like creating things that break the D&D rule system. In fact, there are lots of stuff in Khoras created specifically to NOT fit into D&D rules and I like it that way.

So, to sum up that last paragraph, I agree with Sid6.7. A good DM will let you create your character concept how you want. Same goes for character background and history. A good DM will use your character background and integrate it into the larger story of the campaign. Sometimes character backgrounds can lead to subplots and new branches of plot.

One last thought... if you've got a really strong character concept, a good background and a lot of ideas about how you'd like to see that character play out in a campaign... well.. have you considered writing a short story using that character? That would give you unlimited freedom to express the character and you'd have control over everything. It's not a replacement for gaming... just something fun to do while you're hunting for fellow players and a good DM. Also, writing fiction with the character might generate new ideas.

Hope this was, in some way, helpful.

[tanis]

Thanks to both of you for your comments.

Yes, I totally agree with you, David, and I've actually been mulling over some ideas for my own game for some time now. You should be happy to know that you've been a significant influence on how I look at tabletop gaming.

However, until I come up with a new system, or convince a three players and a DM/GM to play some other system, I've pretty much settled on Pathfinder as my "core" game for now, and that's what I'm looking to play, though I'm always fine with tweaks and house rules.

And I totally understand. To be honest, while it's not the best idea, I could probably make a passable DM if I chose to do it, but if I DMed a campaign for other people, I'd never get to play, so I'm being obstinate about it. I want ONE campaign, damn it! Then I'll consider getting behind the screen. XD

That said, I'm glad to hear that what I do shouldn't be a problem as long as it's not unbalanced. Would you be able to tell me if my class was unbalanced or overpowered if I made it accessible on here when it's done?

And finally, yes, I've actually been thinking about writing a short story to serve as the character's background, which is part of why I was concerned about how much detail I put into the character's backstory.

[sid6.7]

by all means present your character for review...i'll do the best I can to see if hes too powerful or to weak...i'll look at pathfinder if you want to see what its about...

[sid6.7]

I noticed on the pathfinder website they have solo adventures while not as fun it might give you the chance to play your PC and flesh out more detail they also have a 1 on 1 module you might think about.

[tanis]

Thanks, I'll definitely do that, then, once I finish designing my archetype. For those of you familiar with Pathfinder (AKA D&D 3.75), I'll be designing an archetype for the Cavalier class, as well as an Order. The Orders are sort of like which Knightly Order you're character is in, but "Knights Errant" are basically just generic Arthurian knights, and all the rest are very flavor-centric, so even though one or two are actually pretty cool, they don't fit my character and would lead to significant distortions of the concept.

I'm thinking that I'll probably call the archetype Condottiere or Man-At-Arms. I'm not sure what I'll call the order yet.

Anyways, I'll upload those things once I get around to drafting them up, as right now they're just ideas that need to be fleshed out.

[David Roomes]

Four comments:

1. I agree with you wanting to play. I strongly feel that a person should play at least one campaign before they get behind the screen and try DMing. Being a DM is much harder than being a player. I think a few games as player gives you a "feel" for the flow of the game, balance and so forth.

2. If you have ideas for the character and the background, write it down. Feel free to make lots of notes, extensive character histories, even stories. That's fine. As a DM, I love it when a player comes to me with a character background. The more material, the better. A DM can use that material to tie into various parts of the campaign. I don't think I've ever had a character come to me with too much information. And, even if there was too much, a DM and player can talk and find a middle ground. On several occasions, I've talked to the player and we've tweaked a character to better fit the campaign. Often, we both end up liking the new character concept even better.

3. Feel free to post the character description online here and we'll give comments. Absolutely.

4. Pathfinder... I haven't played it yet, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. D&D 3.75... that's a good description. People have told me it's like version 3.5 but "fixed". My current players all wanted to test drive 5th edition and that is the only reason I'm running it. I think I'm stuck with 5th ed until the campaign is over. After that, I swear I'm done with D&D. I'm going to switch to Pathfinder or create my own system (and put it on this website for free, for everyone, forever).   You know what... fuck it... I'm going to make my own game. That'll be my big project for 2017. I've already started working on it. I just need to finish it and play test it.

[tanis]

There's a really popular show on Twitch produced by Geek and Sundry, Felicia Day and Wil Wheaton's website/YouTube/Twitch channel called Critical Role, that I've been thinking about asking you guys about for a while, as it's an entertaining 3+ hour-per-week D&D session that they got the players and DM to do live after they heard about the game, which had been running for two years.

It's a bunch of voice actors, and they all do the voices and get into character really well, so that, if you're looking for a D&D campaign that's fun to watch with players and a DM who are clearly having a ton of fun, it's enjoyable. I hadn't mentioned it, just because I don't know how much David would enjoy watching another DM run a campaign, but I've been watching it for about six or seven months, and it's been on for a year now.

They originally played in Pathfinder, but when they were asked to consider doing it with a live online audience, they switched to 5e because, given the size of the group (there were originally eight players, and there are now seven, with occasional absences due to their schedules) made combat in Pathfinder really tedious. However, Matthew Mercer who is the DM, is perfectly happy to use house rules as he sees fit, and they completely invented a new class in order to translate one player's Gunslinger character over, since 5e doesn't have that class. I wouldn't play 5e over Pathfinder, but now that I've seen it done reasonably well, I wouldn't say no if that was the choice I was given. It's certainly a lot better than 4e, which Matt Mercer has himself mentioned, despite their game getting sponsored by Wizards of the Coast. 4e just sucked. Bad. XD

But let me know about any progress you make, David, because I might have some suggestions regarding combat mechanics. In fact, the biggest reason I want to make my own game is that I actually have significant experience with humping lots of stuff in a pack across various terrain, martial arts (as well as arms and armor) from both Asian and Historical European backgrounds, etc., and while I understand that not everybody cares about realism in the details, I really would love to see combat mechanics, armor mechanics, etc. that are fun without sacrificing all pretexts of being the least bit reflective of the real activities being abstracted. I'd actually been considering getting in touch with you about my ideas, but had been procrastinating about it for a few months. XD;

[David Roomes]

I haven't seen that show, but I would love watching it. I think watching other DMs in action would be great. Watching others is always a good way to learn.

4th edition D&D was abhorrent... the worst edition of D&D by far.

I may take you up on your offer. For many things, the only way to do it is real life experience, real life testing.  I do want to create a game that's more realistic than D&D, particularly when it comes to combat. I think it's possible to find the right balance between realism and playability.

It'll be a while though. As I mentioned, I'm stuck with 5th edition for the current campaign. Right now, I'm jotting down notes and building ideas. Eventually I'll start play testing it on a small scale.

[tanis]

Yeah, it comes on live every Thursday at 7:00 PST/PDT on Geek and Sundry's Twitch channel, and the old episodes are all up at geekandsundry.com, if you're interested. It's got the voice actors behind a lot of major video game and animated series, and some of them have also acted in movies, like Taliesin Jaffe, who was the little kid with the wubbie in Mr. Mom, and Mel Gibson's daughter in What Women Want. It's also really cool how many people they've gotten into D&D, and they've taken fairly good advantage of using their popularity to raise money for charity and things like that.

And feel free to get in touch with me whenever you start working on it. I'd be more than happy both to discuss the actual mechanics, as well as to help you get a better idea of some of the technical aspects of things like fighting with and without weapons and armor, weight management in backpacking, and whatever else you're interested in that I can help with, so just let me know.

In the meantime, just have fun, and make sure we get to read all about what your players' adventure leads.

[tanis]

I've heard a lot of good things about Roll20, I just haven't checked it, or any sites like it.

I'll certainly take it under advisement.

Also, just an update, since I've been given an opportunity; I've finished the character background (or at least, it's in a reasonably developed state), but I'm still working on the modifications to the Cavalier class, as I'm making decisions about how I want to go about doing things. As soon as I have the class archetype finished, I'll post links to everything I've got for review and critique.