KhorasForum

Hi everybody, hi Dave!
It's a long time I've not been here on the forum to ask some question about Khoras. And it seems to me it's very quit here, specially this section.
Let's wake it up with a difficult topic (and who knows, perhaps a debate).

Well, so my question deals with the deity in Khoras. I know Dave that it's not your favorite part of the world but I have some interrogations.
At present, deity are classified in "tiers" (greater gods, lesse gods, demi-gods...) and race. It seems to me that you wanted to change that but I guess other parts of the world caught your attention. So there are tiers, and nations here and there have a primary religion and some secondary religions.

And I have a problem to imagine exactly how it works.
On Earth, there are/were some different religions : greek or egyptian pantheon, god of christian or muslim... But the khorasian faith doesn't fit with that patern.

Ancient greek did believe in different gods but they were a sort of a familly, with Zeus or Poseidon as greater gods. Some greek were priest of one or the other lesser gods (for example Appollon) without denying the other gods. This was a pantheon.
Nowaday, it's impossible to believe in God and Ganesh at the same time. Monotheist religions don't "allow" other gods. But it's possible to believe in Ganesh, Shiva and Vishnu, because it's also a kind of pantheon.

But in Khoras it's more difficult to understand how the faith works.
Can a people believe in several gods in the same time? in a lesser god and a greater god? in several greater gods?

Can all deity of human be considered as a pantheon (implying that every human "believe" in all these gods, even if he only pray for some of them)?
If yes, is there a chief god (like Zeus)?

Or on the contrary perhaps each god has its own unique religion. But it would imply that no one could pray several gods...?

If anyone here has some idea to help, I would be very glad to hear other point of view.

Sorry for the very late reply. (I'm going to go around to all the sections of the forum and find questions I haven't answered, like this one).

To answer your question, yeah, religion is one area that I know badly needs to be reworked, but I never seem to have the interest. The whole topic of religion just doesn't really interest me, which is why the religions of Khoras are one of the weakest areas of the whole world. But a complete overhaul of the entire religion section has been on my mind for awhile.

As far as independent deities versus whole pantheons, I think they could co-exist. In other words, it would probably depend on the culture. Some parts of the world might have pantheons of deities while other areas have a number of independent, a mutually exclusive, gods. That would, probably lead, to friction between the different religions and possibly outright war.

I originally created the religions of Khoras like the deities of 2nd edition D&D. Each race had its own pantheon. But over the years I started to drift away from that (most notably in the other two continents - Qeshir and Aggradar).

So, if you're playing in Khoras, feel free to rework the religions as you see fit. The Khoras religions are not well defined and (again) in need of a lot of work. I guess I'm agreeing with you. ;)

I know you lack motivation on this part of the world.
That's why I stimulate/encourage/support you to do that!  :D

Let me throw the question back at you. And everyone else is invited to chime in.

First of all, if you are really interested in the religions, I could certainly make that a priority. I had a few other areas that I was going to target, but if this is an area that has a lot of interest, then I will move it to the top of the list and start working on it right now. So, is this an area you really want me to work on? If so, I'll start tonight.

Second, with regards to pantheons versus individual deities, what's your preference? What would you like to see? I ask because I really am not sure. As I mentioned earlier, I originally created the deities as several pantheons. Each race had their own pantheon (because that's the way it was done way back in 1st and 2nd edition D&D). However, I started to mix things up a little when I was doing the religions for Aggradar and Qeshir.

A couple of years ago I wrote down a lot of notes regarding an overhaul of the entire religion section. I was thinking about simplifying the religions. Specifically, I was thinking about making it a smaller number of gods... instead of 80+ gods, I was going to reduce it down to about 20 gods. In several instances, 2 or 3 of the old gods would be merged to create a new god. Each of these 20 or so remaining gods would be very detailed, with lots of notes on their religions, priests, ceremonies, beliefs, clothing, holy days, holy symbols, special abilities and so forth. So, 20 or so VERY well detailed religions. Each god would be independent and would be worshiped by many different races and nations across large areas of the world. The idea would be that these are very old religions, having started as race specific, but their worship had spread and was now widely worshipped.

Some religions would oppose each other, leading to cultural conflict, holy wars, etc. Some religions would be tied to specific regions (Draxorith and Duthelm, for instance).

But the main thing is that it would simplify the religions section. I would have fewer gods to worry about and each god would be much more fleshed out.

I think I discussed this here on the forum a long time ago and I got a lot of people responding with their favorite deities and a request that their favorite Khoras god NOT be merged with others or deleted outright.

Thoughts? Concerns? Ideas? Let's hear it. I really am curious.

I, for one, like the idea of fewer (but better and more interesting) gods. I also like the idea of keeping them separate. Writing up and maintaining multiple pantheons is a lot of work (and frankly hasn't worked in the past). That's not to say that pantheons would be abandoned entirely. For instance, one idea is that a pantheon could have a chief god (he would be the main god and the religion is based around him), but there could be a number of lesser gods that serve him, lesser aspects of him, whatever. But, as far as faith goes, it's all one big religion and it would be one of the 20 religions. Just an idea.

Ok, that's it. I'll shut up now. Let's hear your ideas.

i like the idea of less Gods having them more fleshed out 20 of them would cover khoras pretty good espcially ithria as the are so many nations close together...

Ok let's try to do a clear answer.

Interest:
yes I'm interested since for me religion is not just an add-on somewhere on a character sheet. It's a part of life for a lot of people, and it should be well taken into account (in my system, it's one of the 8 specs like FIGHT / MAGIC / COMMUNICATION / PERCEPTION...).

Greater gods / lesser gods: I'm not sure you wanted to keep this distinction. Personnaly I like it. I like to imagine some gods, "too high in the sky" to be involved in the day-to-day life of Khoras, while other, less strong, are more concerned (because they gain influence by struggling via mortal humans, because it matters for them, because they hate mortals...).
I also like to imagine that not all gods are omniscient (it's a very monotheist point of view I think). Perhaps lesser gods only focus where they are prayed and don't watch everybody's life permanently...
Wasn't there a poll on this forum about that? I'm not sure...

Simplification:
I agree with you that it's difficult to keep track of so many number of gods, especially IMO because each of them is individual. It's hard to imagine (and to keep record of) that one guys believe in god A,C and G, while his neighboor believe in A, E and F, especially of we don't know how to link A,C,E,F and G. I think it's possible to simplify the system not by merging gods but by gathering them into pantheon.

Pantheon:
I think there is various way to describe a pantheon, from "there are pleinty of gods" (not enough detail) to a complete description of each of these gods (too much work). The idea would be to re-use the material to avoid having to write an entire Khoras section from scratch.

First I think you should avoid the destruction of information (what was created must remain). So for instance, let's gather some gods form human gods under a single pantheon ("eastern pantheon"). Perhaps some of human gods don't meant to be incorporated in it, such as Barrinor (too on the west side), or Karrym (abstract)... Perhaps you could decide what religion could be monotheistic (Ynthar? Karenia?) and remove them from the list. Then let's organize the remaining gods into a pantheon:

• What type of pantheon is it? (a family like in ancient greek? or a group based on power or seniority?)
• What are the interaction between them? Is there a chief? As there are several major gods, how is it managed?
• How to explain the presence of negative gods AND positive gods in the same pantheon? ancient greeks also had a god for death and such things...
  

I think it would be much much clearer (without loosing information). It won't be anymore a "mess" like today  ;D
In so doing, you could have 20 religions, with a lot more gods in them.
Of course it's possible to mix between races. Like you I don't like this strict racial subdivision.

If you want I could work a bit on this idea. But I would do that only if it is a supported idea, because I don't want to impose my point of view just since I was quicker to write something.

Ok then. I'm going to spend the month of March focusing on an overhaul of the Religion section. I've been putting it off for too long anyway. It's time to just do it. And I have a feeling that it will probably go into April as well.

I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to tackle it. I'll reread all the comments here in the forum, including the ones from way back when, and I'll review all my notes. I think there's probably a way to achieve both goals... more detail, simplification, minimize any destruction of existing lore. It'll be a bit more of a "re-organization" rather than a "re-write". I still might eliminate a couple of gods, but I promise when it's done there will still be plenty to choose from.

As we make our way through March and into April, I may toss the occasional question out here on the forum regarding gods, religions and priests.

hehehe i dont evny you...i completely avioded religon on my world for that very reason...

I think a few pantheons with greater and lesser gods and maybe a few monotheist religions.
For example Barrinor is a lesser god (for me) as he was human before, so he cannot exist by himself, like a monotheist religion god.
IMHO a pantheon with a god of death, or chaos or whatever is ok, but there should be a full pantheon for Duthelm and the likes, so it could be religious conflicts, not just "your god and my god are rivals", but "you heretic, believing in false gods".
I hope I'm clear :D

By the way, should priest, cleric, have "magical" powers ? Is it magic mastered unconsciously ? Is it really the power of the gods ? Is it psychic powers misunderstood ?

I have an opinion on that last question, but I'll just keep it to myself. Religion is a complicated topic in the real world and an even more complicated topic when you're talking about designing the religions of a fictional world which exists primarily for the purposes of gaming and writing. Add to that the fact that every one - every reader, player and game master, has his or her own opinions, interests and beliefs on the subject. Yeah... religion is a complicated, messy topic. There's no escaping it.

I wrote a lot of notes about the religion redesign around four years ago. Some of the material got posted to the site, but a lot of the material remained unfinished and was never uploaded. Since then I've pondered, edited, debated, second-guessed... I've gone back and forth about how to tackle this.

Ultimately, I think what I'm going to do is just forge ahead and finish what I started four years ago... redesigning the gods the way I had originally intended. It may not please everyone, but that can't be helped. Each game master is free to adopt, adapt, alter or ignore, as they see fit.

Religion is on the March spotlight!

Concerning the "magic" power of priest, I have never been confortable with the fact that priest could be transformed into mage by their god.
A mage is someone who can master magic, and understood it. A priest not.
That's why I use two opposite ways to treat that. In one word, priest may ask the deity for miracles, and/or be granted with some sort of specific "natural powers". But they cannot cast spells.

David, you can tell us your feelings we won't repeat it :)

i would tend to agree with that but don't they have some "powers" such as to exercise demons and such?

Yes I think, but that's not a spell.
For me a spell is a sort of magical construct. An "exercise demon" is not IMO a spell that any mage could cast.
It's more something like a miracle that is granted by a deity.

Hi, guys. Man, have I been gone too long.

Personally, I always found the religions interesting. I think there's plenty of space for alliances and conflicts already in the current system, so I feel more like things should just be reorganized a bit, and such. I did like the idea of aloof Greater Gods and active Lesser Gods and Demigods, and such.

As for fleshing things out, and ideas, one thing I wanted to bring up was that, when pagan and animist faiths were still dominant in Europe, for example, there were standard pantheons, say, for each civilization, or nation, as the case may have been. But individual worship would have been much more diverse, varied, and complicated. While it would have been common to worship the entire pantheon and pray to whatever god could be of use for a particular situation, this wasn't the only way things worked. Often, a person or family would have some gods that they regularly and highly venerated, or even a city, such as Athens or Sparta, over and above even the chief god of the pantheon. Also, gods from other faiths and pantheons might be worshiped for whatever reason. And ancestor veneration, if not worship, was not too uncommon for European pagans.

So, if we're talking about realism, though it might include more work, the variety helps, because it means that there are many diverse cultures on each continent, with their own traditions and faiths, and, just like real cultures, there's a bleeding effect that happens in border areas, with migrant populations, and the like, so that, for instance, a mercenary might particularly venerate one god of war from one pantheon in particular, but would also worship a few other deities whose cults he had become familiar with through tradition or travel that struck him for whatever reason as good choices for his faith, and he might pray to any god or goddess that he was aware of as needed. This could be all from one pantheon, or not, it wouldn't necessarily matter to anyone with a similar faith to the European pagan.

In and around this, there would be priests and clerics devoted to a single deity, or perhaps the pantheon as a whole. Hell, maybe there would even be a priest devoted to some section of the pantheon, like all the gods involved with one aspect of life, or all the goddesses. Also, I could imagine a warrior praying to all of the war gods he was familiar with to increase the chances of one of them showing him favor in his battles, or being entirely devoted to just one god from one pantheon, akin to a priest, and relying on his loyalty and devotion to appeal to the god's favor.

But there are other kinds of religion, of course, and I think Khoras's religions, as they stand, reflect several of these other types, which again, adds to the realism, I think. For instance, pantheists believe either that there's a god in every thing, and animists believe that there are spirits that float about or exist in trees or rocks or what have you, and view the world and the things in it accordingly.

As for monotheistic faiths, not all of them are alike. Sure, the Abrahamic faiths, with the exception of Baha'i, are mutually exclusive of other beliefs, but Hinduism, though often thought of as polytheistic, is considered by some adherents to be monotheistic. It's really more of a complicated mixture of monotheism and pantheism that is explicated as polytheism than anything else, if that makes sense. Plus, many Hindus consider all religions and philosophies paths to the universal truth of Brahman, meaning that they consider Buddha and Jesus gods just as they do Vishnu or Kali. And that's not even opening the box of worms involved with Taoism or Buddhism and such.

So, I know that may be too much to do with the resources at your disposal, Dave, but I think you ought to consider if and how Khoras's religions could be developed with this in mind.

A few suggestions, if I may. One religion in particular that I think has a good case for being standalone is the Yntharian one. I LOVE the idea behind this. Hell, it's actually influenced my philosophy in the real world somewhat. I suspect that anyone who devoted themselves to the rigors of the cult of Ynthar would likely view it as akin to being a Christian monk, being entirely devoted to their faith and daily striving for mastery over themselves. I find it unlikely that a Yntharian, while an active practitioner, would follow any other faiths simultaneously.

This also might help with structuring things, since some gods wouldn't have to fit into any structure, and some would be part of a pantheon, while others might be part of a small cabal of related faiths. It would also help keep it from being the sort of D&D Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic and Good/Neutral/Evil domain structure that you're trying not to emulate, Dave.

Anyways, as usual, sorry for the long post, but this is something I find fascinating in real life, so of course I had to add my opinion on my first day back in forever.

First of all, Hi everybody! I'm back from my Europe trip. I took about a thousand photos. Maybe 20 or 30 of which will eventually get added to the website this summer. However, it's going to be a few months before you see the new photos because I'm not going to do anything with them until the religion project is completed. I am 100% focused on religion until it's done. It's a big project. And as, Tanis pointed out, religion is a very complicated topic. I'm going to keep plugging away at it. I don't want to "unveil" anything until it's ready and also, I don't want to unveil one god/religion at a time. I think they may be unveiled in groups or batches. More on that later...

But anyway, I'm back. And work on religion continues (quietly, continually, in the background...)

Good to hear it! :D

glad your back safe and sound! i look forward to the pictures i bet that was fun? or was it a rush? look forward to the new religions/Gods too...

It was rushed. Would like to have had more than 4 days of sightseeing. But it was good trip and everything went well.

Quote from: tanis on April 02, 2014, 03:58:37 AM
Hi, guys. Man, have I been gone too long.

Hi Tanis!
We miss you!

Just a quick update. Work on religion continues. I knew this was going to be a big, slow, plodding project, which is one reason I avoided it for so long. But, work continues on religion. As promised, it's still at the top of the list. I'm going to finish the religion overhaul before I touch anything else on the site. So, that's all. Just didn't want you to think I had forgotten or abandoned it.

i know how it goes it takes me forever to update my site i gotta be in the right mood... ::)

Sorry to hear about your friend, Dave, but glad that work has resumed, at least in Khoras years. XD;

And yeah, Delbareth, I tried to check on things here from time to time, but it was dark for a long time, and finally I just got busy with life, I'm afraid.

Well, I'm glad you stop in every now and then. Khoras may occasionally go "dark" every now and then, but I will always come back to it and add some more. Plus, Khoras is going to be online for awhile yet (another century or two). :)

So, I've been going back through the religion section (among others), and I've noticed/thought of some things I wanted to mention (in preparation for the future when Dave has the time available to work on Khoras again).

First of all, it occurred to me that, if one were to be really accurate about how religions function (though, this is, of course, a fantasy setting, and Dave's brainchild; so at the end of the day, he has final jurisdiction, to be sure), then more than likely each CULTURE, rather than each species/race would have its own religious structures. Bathyns would like as not never have heard of many Thullian/Rukemian gods, unless those gods had come there themselves, or missionaries had arrived from the east (excepting, of course, situations such as the pre-existence of , either of which would serve to add flavor to the setting.

For example, Imarus should probably, if there were to be a single human pantheon, be the chief god. But realistically, while Imarus's faith might be spread across all of Ithria, as his is a very old religion, even his worship might very well be a primarily Eastern phenomenon, and Barrinor, or Erylon, would likely not be spread equally across the continent, even in human populations.

I make this point for several reasons. One is this. As I said earlier, I absolutely adore the idea of the Cult of Ynthar. It is one of, if not my single most, favorite parts of this entire website. I am, as it happens, actually a philosopher by trade now, among a few other things, and the concepts behind the Yntharian faith have, in real life, actually affected my beliefs about the world (for those of you who would appreciate such things, I am tripartite, trinitarian, or trialist, in my ideas/beliefs about substance and/or property). There are other faiths within Khoras that I like quite a lot as well.

But the key thing is this. I love this site, and what Dave has managed is a beautifully believable world, which manages to combine fantasy setting clich?s with realistic and/or scientific justifications for things. In short, it merges the needs of a world where magic is real and gods and liches and other powerful beings act purposefully to achieve their goals, with the needs of a world in which 21st Century Earth-people immersed in a scientistic paradigm can easily and comfortably believe. It makes fantasy something believable for persons disenchanted from the kinds of naive expectations one would expect of a traditional, 20th Century RPG fantasy world.

But to do so, Khoras requires highly realistic, believable, and well-developed settings. Such things require as bold and expansive structures as Dave can devote the time to develop. In my short review of the religion section, I've come across some pages, such as the pages for Ynthar and Erylon, that are clearly from the period in site history from which I began to be involved with the site. I have also come across the page for Barrinor, for example, which appears to have been somewhat altered from what I remember.

I do not, I should make clear, have a problem with the restructuring of the site, necessarily. This restructuring is, I believe, necessary to the further expansion of the World of Khoras. And, in fact, any active work on the site is, to me, always a great joy, as this website has been both a source of constant intellectual stimulation, as well as a source of much enjoyment. However, I am a little worried that Khoras will lose some of its unique flavor if its deities, which are strange and unique as often as not, are too heavily neutered.

Don't feel like you have to shoehorn things together for simplicities sake.

In addition to this, I thought I might offer, if you were interested, Dave, my services in keeping the site well-ordered. I'm not certain exactly how you have the site put together, or what the site requires, but I'm not particularly busy in my life right now, and, if you were interested, I'd be more than happy to help you out by going through pages, fixing minor spelling and grammar errors, policing information for consistency and accuracy, and such.

Obviously, that would be up to you, but I thought you might appreciate not having to handle the site totally alone.

Anyways, as I said before I wish you and your friend luck, and am interested to see how things will continue to grow and develop in the World of Khoras. :D

Tanis, As always, it's a pleasure to have you on the forum. :)

I agree with you completely that religions should be broken up primarily by culture. Any culture which is somewhat isolated by geography will develop its own culture and religion. Those cultures which are in frequent contact (proximity, trade, etc) will invariably cross-pollinate each other with ideas. So, their languages, customs and religions will tend to influence each other, and given enough time, blend together.

There are some cases where the race and the culture are one in the same. The dwarves, for example, went underground and very effectively isolated themselves from other cultures. That's why they have such a distinct culture and why they would likely have a unique religion unrelated to anything on the surface. The baenites are another example of an isolated culture and their religion would be completely unique and unrelated.

At the other end of the spectrum, you've got several human and Grumman nations in eastern Ithria that interact frequently and have for many centuries. They would likely share a number of gods. Eastern Ithria is, in fact, the most active region with a number of cultures trading and lots of  travel. So that's one area where there will be a number of very old religions that are worshiped widely in numerous kingdoms. Western Ithria is a little more wild and broken up into separate cultures. This will be reflected in the new religion section.

So, yes, I'm agreeing with you. One of the big factors in religion is the culture that gave birth to that religion and how that culture relates to the world around it. The new religion section will have a mix of old, broad religions that are widely worshiped in some areas and younger, more focused religions that are the product of a specific region or culture.

One thing that you mentioned is that you're afraid if I monkey around with the gods too much, the gods will be neutered and lose much of their flavor. I definitely don't want that to happen. I do want fewer gods, but I want each of the remaining gods to have a great deal of character, flavor and detail. That's definitely one of my goals. I want each religion to be well thought out, very detailed, fascinating and believable. After reading the description of a religion, I want players to come away from it saying "I want to run a cleric of THAT religion!".

So far, this has proven to be a challenging writing project. However, I am enjoying it so far and I have come up with some really neat stuff that I'm proud of.

I am doing some research - real world religions, religions in gaming, etc. For starters, I perused all of the articles from DRAGON magazine that dealt with gods and religion. I found some interesting ideas in the old stuff (from the 70s and 80s). I then read some PDFs of D&D books.

I read a couple of different editions of the Deities and Demigods - including a recent version that was aimed at Dungeons and Dragons version 3.5 and the d20 gaming system. I didn't like that one at all. It's not that it was poorly written. Rather, they were focusing their efforts in the wrong place. Three things specifically bothered me about it:

1. For each god/religion, the writers spent most of their time giving the combat stats of the gods and specific abilities. That would be valuable information if your party was going to FIGHT the god. But how often is that going to happen? Frankly, if the adventuring party has enough power to take on a god, then the campaign is seriously unbalanced. Yes, it's true that maybe, just maybe, a party could reach such epic levels of awesomeness that they could, indeed, challenge a god. However, such a storyline should be incredibly RARE. So rare, in fact, that a DM should/could create the stats for the god as part of the game/story. He or she should not need the combat stats for every single deity. Anyway, that's just a pet peeve of mine. Combat stats for gods are almost completely unnecessary. And yet the writers of that particular book spent about 75% of each god's description on the combat stats. I'd also like to point out that the stats were, in my opinion, underpowered. These are freakin' gods! They should be ridiculously powerful.

2. Many of the gods were too similar. They had the same powers and the same limitations, over and over again, just tweaked slightly for their particular sphere of influence. It was like these deities came off an assembly line, with slightly different paint jobs. They lacked character. They lacked individuality.

3. The writers spent very little time on the actual religion. Again, they spent a lot of time on the combat stats, armor class, weapon damage and special abilities of the deity. But then, when it came to describing the people that worshiped the deity, the church, its rituals, its history, its reasons for being, how that religion interacts with the world around it... they gave only a sentence or two. There was virtually no detail at all given to the actual church and faith.

I want the new religion section of Khoras to be the antithesis of that Deities and Demigods book. I'm not going to weary the reader by tabulating mundane combat stats for the gods. I would rather craft each god carefully, weaving great tales of their exploits and lavishing each in rich detail. And, for each god, I want to spend at least an equal amount of time describing the church and faith. I want them to be unique. I want them to have flavor.

I haven't read much from other gaming systems. It's possible that there are some RPGs out there that have wonderful, rich and incredibly well written religions and gods. If anyone has any suggestions, let me know. I would love to read and be inspired. All I can say is that I read some of the recent material from Wizards of the Coast and I was... disappointed.


And yes, Tanis, I would love help with the site. I am always trying to fix spelling, grammar, poor writing, missing details, flaws in logic and so much more. What did you have in mind? Perhaps you should email me and we can discuss it offline. (Unless, of course, you had thoughts you wanted to share with everyone - which is fine. In that case, keep it in the forum). And if anyone else wants to help, let me know. If you see something broken, flawed or just misspelled on the site, please let me know. Point it out and I'll fix it. If you'd like to take a more active role in policing the site, speak up.

I started this site simply as my own gaming world, but I have no problem sharing it. I am always delighted whenever someone contributes something (which happens every now and then, but not very often). Perhaps one day, Khoras could turn into a community endeavor where lots of different people have direct access and contribute writing/art/creativity to sections of the world. To be honest, I'd be ok with that. I'm not sure how the logistics of such a thing would manifest, but having multiple contributors would be fun and would certainly accelerate the pace of work on the world.

Ok, I've rambled on long enough. :)  If you've actually stuck with me and read this whole entry, you have my gratitude.

Work on the religion section will eventually resume and continue. That I promise. And I do hope that everyone likes it when it's done.

Lol. Glad to hear that you are, as much as time and life allow, doing a fair amount of research.

Isn't Khoras the antithesis of almost everything Wizards does with D&D? It certainly seems like it. XD

I certainly can't imagine the need for combat statistics for gods. I can imagine a concerted effort of archmages and weaponmasters taking down Draxorith, but the numbers involved probably wouldn't exist on one continent. Maybe if the pre-Sundering Alliance had a go of it, but otherwise, the Avisarr is probably the better route.

And I'm very glad to hear things are moving again in Khoras. Forgive me if I came off a bit excited, one of my friends is doing new and exciting things in the, mostly psychological, study of religion (primarily non-belief oriented), so I've had plenty of time to discuss and debate the topic over the past few months.

I was looking at Khoras almost every day since you announced what will happen in July about religion :D
Good job, I like the way it's organized !
I have a question, I don't see Oberon in the dark gods, did he disappear ? If so, who do I have to use instead of him ? There's many Oberon temples, including one in the trackless mire I may use in my campaign, but my PC still dont know about it, so I can replace with the right god :p

Oberon is still here, but I changed his name. The new name is Barulda. (Pronounced "ba-ROOL-da"). Only his name has changed. In all other respects, he is Oberon. God of Undead, Necromancy, Death Magic and all other sorts of wonderfulness.

I had to change his name for several reasons. But most importantly, Oberon was the "King of the Faeries" in medieval and renaissance literature. I don't like that. I knew Oberon was a historical name, but I decided that I can't have my GOD OF THE UNDEAD sharing a name with the King of the Faeries. That just can not be tolerated. Hence, he gets a new name.

I think you'll like Barulda. He's basically the exact same as the old Oberon, but this time he's dialed up to 11. :)

The full page on Barulda will be unveiled in a couple of weeks. So far, I've been unleashing one god per day. Four have been released so far. More are coming...

Thanks, I was not sure if Barulda was a god from the previous gods.
So, it's great and I like the way they are categorized... Can't wait to see who are the ancients or the hallowed !
Is there a little place for cthulhuesque godlike creatures ? :D

Yes, I like the Lovecraftian mythos and I think a little bit of that style might creep in somewhere. Not sure yet, but I'll add something in later.

Great :D

Another question.
Barrinor : "Ranged weapons are shunned as they are a craven?s weapon."
What about Stirling Rangers ? (could be extended to "all rangers of Ithria"). Don't they use bows ?

Hey! I didn't notice
You have already made an amazing work!
I've only red the overview and Imarus, but it's clearly much more rich and subtle than what it used to be.
Congratulations!

To Delbareth - Imarus got a lot of detail because he was the first one I did. Also, he's a really important god. My goal is to make MOST of the deities as interesting, deep and rich as Imarus. At least, there are certain gods that are fun and they will get a lot of detail. There are other gods that will probably get a bit less detail initially. It depends on the nature of the deity. There are a couple that I have found were hard to write about. But I'm glad you like it so far.

And to Laurent... yes, you are absolutely right! The Stirling Rangers do use bows and they would worship Barrinor. Hmmmm, I had honestly forgotten about them. I rather like the idea of the knights not using bows, but the rangers need to. And yet, they both need to worship Barrinor. I'll have to think about this. :)

One possible solution is that the laws of Barrinor are interpreted differently for different groups. The knights might be very strict about that law, but the Stirling Rangers are more lax in their observation of the weaponry restrictions. Sort of like different sects worshiping the same god, but having slightly different interpretations. So, that's one idea off the top of my head. I'll have to ponder this one. Anyone have any brilliant ideas to resolve this dilemma? :)  Or do people think knights should use bows?

As there's different "views" on Christian religions, it could be the same for Barrinor. For "normal" Christian (sorry don't know the right term, I hope it's not offensive), Protestantism is not the right way to worship God but they have no problem with it (in France at least !), but Jehovah Witnesses are not well received and their view is mostly perceived as irresponsible (blood transfusion forbidden), not fun (no birthdays) and too intrusive ("preacher" knocking at your door every sunday to try to convince you...).
So, for the same God, in the same Country, I see without putting too much reflexion in it, 3 ways to worship the same god, the "common" way (in term of number of worshipper), another way with few worshipper here but more in other countries and a little bit more flexible (with pastors that can marry) and another way, mostly unpopular everywhere and seen as "weird".

So we could say the Barrinor Cult is like the Christian religion, popular but not too flexible "by the book" (for "extremists" like Knights and alike...), and the Rangers (and many others, more in some regions, less in others, maybe a few to Strathon,  but more to Stirling, closer to "real world dangers") more tolerant with using range weapons, not seen as shameful, but a way that could be right to Barrinor to deal with savage beasts and bandits without honor that don't deserve an "honorable" way to die.

Heh in fact I'm just saying the same thing as you I think :p

Yep, I think we agree. I like the idea of the knights being a bit on the "extremist" side. So, they would tend to be very strict. Hence, no bows for them. But others could be more lax. I'll have to rewrite that page a little bit, but I can make it work. :) Thanks for catching that.

Is it me or would Ynthari make excellent Jedi-like characters?

One thing I don't really understand (but that might just be my limited intelligence): why are the Ynthari opposed to the Dark Lords? Is it just because the Dark Lords are considered evil and it's simple 'common sense' to be against them? That I could understand, although that seems too simple a reason for a whole faith. If the Ynthari tenets are about body, mind and spirit, then I figure concepts like good and evil are inconsequential. A 'good' person could strive for perfection of body, mind and spirit as much as an 'evil' person could -- unless you believe that perfection of spirit is 'the ultimate good', which I don't. I'd interpret the perfection of spirit as a state that transcends concepts like good and evil. A state of nirvana. Both good and evil people could strive towards that. The former needs to overcome concepts like pity and kindness while the latter needs to overcome concepts like cruelty and egotism. Both sides are obstacles towards the perfection of mind. Hence I could see 'evil people' become Ynthari monks just as easily as 'good people', because good and evil are meaningless in their faith. Or am I missing/misinterpreting something?

On another note: David, is the deity Vallaurias still part of the pantheon? I loved the concept of a Rojavi, so I'd be saddened to see it gone.

Roman,

You are correct on several things. The Ynthar should be a bit more "neutral". I agree with you, the tripartite body/mind/spirit philosophy of the Ynthari could be practiced by both the good and the evil. I'll make a slight adjustment to the Ynthar page.

Second, the Ynthar do have a little bit of Jedi flavor to them. Not intentional, but there is a bit of a similarity. If you wanted to run a Jedi like character in Khoras, a disciple of Ynthar would be a great place to start.

Third... Vallaurius lives! Although he got adjusted slightly. Look under the Celestials and you will find "The Three Fates". Three ogre gods of war. One of them is Vallaurius, but modified a bit.

First of all, I just wanted to say that despite my earlier reservations, I'm extremely happy with everything you've done so far with the religions, Dave! Thanks for being awesome, as usual.

As to Barrinor, one way you could do it would be to either have the Stirling Rangers be a splinter group of the faith, a different denomination in utero, as it were, as you've already sort of mentioned.

But you could also have there be some internal issue within the Barrinor faith, where the Rangers worship Barrinor, but suffer some form of discrimination for it. Perhaps a caste-like distinction between the Rangers and the Knights, with only the Knights being able to move up within the rank structure, or something along those lines.

Otherwise, I'm not sure you could reconcile the Rangers with the current version of the faith.

And regarding the Yntharians, I think they are, in some ways, far cooler than Jedi are, but they're certainly similar, being monks devoted to balance and whatnot. Personally, I think that you're right, as far as people of diverse morals and temperaments being able to be Ynthari, but I think that they would be more neutral than "good AND evil", and I suspect than any truly evil individuals would probably be less tolerant of the sort of balance and discipline that is their focus. Not to mention that most Ynthari monks would likely be more focused on developing themselves than practicing said development.

Frankly, I've always gotten a strong Shaolin sort of vibe from them, with a touch of the Tao, where a holistic approach to monastic life serves to make all the aspects better, but the goal is still to remain focused on the practice of one's faith, rather than sojourning far and wide in search of disciples or adventure. Of course, they wouldn't be adverse to adventure, but I suspect it would be more a matter of individual temperament and interest than organizational influence.

As to their dealings with the Dark Lords, frankly, the Dark Lords are all specifically evil, and share common elements of destructiveness, violence, and the favoring of chaos to the exclusion of order. I find it hard to believe that many groups could survive being neutral to these faiths, except those which could be, at least temporarily and for mutual benefit, aligned somehow. The Ynthari would be unlikely to actively wage war on anyone, really, but I suspect that their tenets would preclude being on particularly good terms with most, if not all, of the Dark Lords.

I've always sort of considered things of philosophical interest to be more academic, and, therefore, more in line with the intellect, than the spirit, including issues of morality. When I think of "spiritual" excellence, I think more along the lines of being well-adjusted and in tune with oneself, nature, society, and whatever else, and being able to make one's way, and pursue the things that one feels need pursuing, with a sort of easy passion, something halfway between complete non-action and aloofness on the one hand, and fire and zealotry on the other. Something like nirvana, I suppose.

But nirvana really has very little to do with arguments regarding morality. It's something else, I feel, from what I understand of the concept. Something far more sublime.

As to any argument about good/evil/neutral dispositions, I will say only this: I have known many people, with widely varying moral beliefs, and the vast majority, even those who were decidedly amoral, and vocally so, have been, in my opinion, either good/seeking the good or relatively neutral. It is rare, in my experience, for anyone, regardless of their moral position, to be truly evil, but those who are generally are either mentally ill, or they so revel in their own hatefulness that they are wholly averse to doing anything so edifying as practicing a highly disciplined monastic life.

I suspect they would be more like Jedis. Sure, some of them go dark and do evil things, but they generally have become corrupted, or had the "evil" aspects of their nature come out of balance with the "good" aspects, rather than having been wholly evil from the outset. I guess I just feel that if you're talking in terms of good or evil dispositions, you have to talk about the morality, and if you wish to avoid it, it would be easier to drop those sorts of terms and considerations entirely.

just took a couple of days and went through the religion section of khoras and i think you did a stand up job dave the detail is incredible and i too really like the Ynthar way how you threaded it all together is amazing becuase of the detail.

Thanks! Glad you like it!

Draxorith (the last of the Dark Lords) and the Kindred Gods are coming soon.

That's great news, Dave. :D

okay i just noticed there are 2 gods of war kael and belhelizar is that because one is worship locally(the Coalition, the War Vale, Vorrik and Duthelm) and the other more world wide?

I could have misunderstood somewhat, but I think the idea is that Kael is a war god that is neutral, but aligned generally with the civilized "good" gods of the Eastern cultures, while Belhelizar is the chief god of "evil", and stands opposed to order and civilization as the god of chaos.

It's not so much that Belhelizar is a war god, as it is that he's a god of destruction, and war is simply one means to destroy the order of civilization and return the world to chaos.

I'm sure Dave will chime in and add anything that I missed or correct any mistaken assumptions I've made, but until then, hopefully this will give you a sense of where I think he was going.

Tanis is exactly correct. Belhelizar is chiefly the god of chaos, destruction, war - the antithesis of everything civilized. So, he's more a god of chaos/evil than a god of war.

Kael is purely a god of war. Although he's a member of the Elder Gods, his popularity goes across racial and cultural lines. Hence there's a line in there that says he is often worshiped by soldiers on both sides of a battle.

Other war gods would be worshiped in other geographic regions. Aggradar has a god of war (who will be detailed later), but he's only worshiped in Aggradar.

Or is he?

PLOT TWIST!  :o

Great ! Can't wait the other gods ! :)

so the new god assytia how is it pronounced? ass E tia?

I've always pronounced it uh-SEE-sha. Though I've heard people pronounce different Khoras terms different ways. You can pronounce it however you like.

Do you think putting pronunciation tips on the site for specific names would be useful? Or would that be too restrictive?

Quote from: David Roomes on January 16, 2015, 10:56:42 PM
I've always pronounced it uh-SEE-sha. Though I've heard people pronounce different Khoras terms different ways. You can pronounce it however you like.

Do you think putting pronunciation tips on the site for specific names would be useful? Or would that be too restrictive?

wow i got that one all wrong...hehehehehe...

probably to restrictive...

Yeah, I pronounce that one uh-SEE-TEE-uh.

I'd say leave it the way it is. It's not that big a deal, and that way people won't feel pressured to pronounce it "right" if they're used to pronouncing it some other way.

Good point. Besides, different regional dialects often pronounce the same thing different ways. No big deal. And it also makes each person's gaming world a little more unique.

Yeah, that's sort of where my mind was as well.

Hello!

Work on the Religion Project continues. Yeah, I know... it's endless... Anyway, this month (August 2015) is focused on Grythga and Uthalgrim, the two gods of the Borrellians. Those two are the last of the Ithrian gods to be updated. So, very soon, all the major religions of Khoras will be done. This is a fairly big milestone and constitutes the bulk of the work on the religion overhaul. I think we're almost three fourths of the way through.

Also, I just spent the last two days going through the site and removing all traces of, and references to, the old Ithrian gods. I did a pretty thorough sweep. However, if you happen to find something which you think is a reference to an old god, let me know. Everything should be pointing to the new Religion sections... the Elder Gods, the Celestials, the Dark Lords and the Kindred Gods.

Starting next month, I will begin working on a whole new region... the gods of Aggradar, beginning with The Ancients. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the religions in Khoras now. Religion used to be the weakest section of the entire website. Now, it's a really strong part of the world.

So, for all of you who contributed ideas, suggestions, comments, questions or just nagged me... thank you!

thanks dave its been interesting so far! look forward to the work in aggradar...

I've been really struggling with the religions of Aggradar. Here's one reason why... "the Ancients" don't really exist anymore and I'm thinking about just removing that category entirely. Aggradar used to be ruled by the Kytohan Empire... a massive empire that spanned almost coast to coast and had conquered almost the entire land mass. The empire worshiped a single pantheon... a set of gods. When the Sundering hit, Aggradar was devastated and the Kytohan Empire was shattered. It broke up into warring provinces and such. A couple thousand years later, whole new nations and whole new races have arisen. SOME of the old gods were adopted and adapted by the new nations and new races. And those religions changed and evolved as they were adapted to the new nations and races. Examples include Bromat (worshiped by the Magrakians), Olgrom (worshiped in the Iron States) and Trodule (worshiped by the Hyttar). That's it. All of the other regions turned to newer faiths, most likely smaller faiths that expanded.

That means three of the old faiths, specifically Baltrad, Hemryk and Vazul, have no vast regions or nations worshipping them. That's my sticking point. Where, exactly, are the worshipers of these three gods? There aren't any. At least not in the massive numbers that there once was. These three religions have really fallen from power. Rather than millions who once worshiped thousands of years ago, there are probably only a few thousand left scattered about the continent. These three have gone from continent spanning mega-religions to obscure cults. So, I'm thinking about just removing them entirely.

The only religions that really should be detailed are the ones who are currently in power today. Who cares about an obscure faith from almost 3000 years ago? That's the kind of thing a game master can wipe up for specific campaigns or dungeon crawl. There are LOTS of obscure cults from history. So, that's my thinking... I'm thinking Baltrad, Hemryk and Vazul are out. Maybe a footnote in the historical section, but they are not worshiped widely today. The religions who SHOULD be detailed are the ones in power across Aggradar. That would be Bromat, Olgram, Trodule, Guelrilath, Chaddamar and the various non-deity philosophies and faiths of the south and east.

So, I can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned they were eager to read about the ancients. Sorry to disappoint, but I think the Ancients are going to be removed.

Comments? Questions? Ideas? Suggestions? Let me hear it.

Hi everybody !
I have been quite quiet on this topic for a very long time, but I really want to say that Dave you have made an amazing work! There is a clear leap in the quality, consistency, details of this section ! Really fantastic !

For your question, I think you're right. Old gods which are no more worshiped are not very interesting. And as you point out there are many other gods in the same situation which are not detailled.

I take the opportunity I'm awaken to ask a question about Belhelizar and specially its cult.
I have no problem with its philosophy "Law and order only serve to limit and restrict life and joy.", but I can't understand how this cult can be OFFICIALLY present in a nation (for instance Duthelm).
I understand that Duthelm also fight the law and order of the Rukemian Empire. So we could see a convergence of their interests. But there are also strict laws in Duthelm, and a form of strict order also. The Cult rules, and I think anyone proclaming that only chaos should rule cannot really be considerer as an ally.
So I have problem to imagine a temple in The Citadel (or elsewhere), with worshippers who proclaim the law of chaos, but follow the strict rules of city where they live...

Thanks for the feedback. Really glad you like the new religion section! Yes, I think it's much better than the old version.

And yes, you summarized it well. I guess my main point is that I don't want to spend a lot of time and effort detailing a religion which is little more than an obscure cult and has few followers. I think the major religions deserve the detail. There are LOTS of dead religions, obscure cults and minor faiths scattered across Khoras and DM's can always invent and detail those minor cults as needed for gaming purposes.

Finally, Belhelizar... ah, Belhelizar... he's one of my favorite gods.  ;)  Yes, you're right. The basic tenets of that faith make it incompatible with civilization in general. The description of Belhelizar includes the following line:  Belhelizar is worshiped openly in the Coalition and Duthelm. Although not embraced by those governments, his temples are open to all and operate without interference. In both of those dark nations, the rulers have found the priests and worshipers of Belhelizar to be useful from time to time.

Basically, that implies that even in those two "dark" nations, there is friction between the government and the church of Belhelizar. The governments find the church of Belhelizar useful from time to time and the church probably finds it to be advantageous to have at least a couple of "out in the open" public establishments, even if they do sometimes have to restrain their faithful. The church of Belhelizar probably views the Rukemian Empire as their chief enemy on the continent and so having a major base in nearby Duthelm is very useful. The saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies here. So most of the aggression of the Belhelizar faithful is directed at the Empire.

I agree, it's not a perfect match. I'm sure there's lots of friction between the faithful of Belhelizar and the rest of the Citadel/Duthelm. Within the Citadel itself, Caramus and the church of Draxorith keeps a watchful eye on the followers of Belhelizar.

Besides, I think there could be some interesting stories that emerge from such "friction".

The only city where the church and priests of Belhelizar can operate with truly no restrictions is Asylum.

Quote from: David Roomes on October 18, 2015, 10:31:50 PM
and the church probably finds it to be advantageous to have at least a couple of "out in the open" public establishments, even if they do sometimes have to restrain their faithful.

I think it is the main point I missed. It says 2 things :
- on a large scale, Belhelizar church has an interest in having an official cult somewhere
- on a local scale, they adapt their speech to fit this situation
I had difficulties to imagine the day-to-day life a Belhelizar followers: you participate to a "mass", where a priest told you how laws, order, civilization is evil. And then they go out of the temple, and are obliged to follow rules, to respect laws, etc... And they have to, not only for thelmselves (like in any country) but because their priest told them to do so. I found that strange.

But now I accept a "corrupt" version of the priest speech: Duthelm law is not the true enemy.
It's lot clearer, and I'm going to start "annoying" my players with Belhelizar followers and priests.

Different game masters might play it different ways.

It's possible that the Belhelizar group in Duthelm is outnumbered and outgunned and they know it's in their best interests to choose their battles. And that's how I'll probably run it in my campaign.

Then again, you could also play it a different way... you could say that the Belhelizar church in Duthelm/Citadel and in Coalition/Tyrrenkor operate "underground" like a criminal organization. They operate from a hidden base/temple within the city and strike out at the city government... even cities that have borderline evil governments.

So, anyway, lots of options. :)