World of Khoras => General Discussion and Questions => Topic started by: Delbareth on October 19, 2007, 02:02:26 PM

Title: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on October 19, 2007, 02:02:26 PM
Hello all!

   For my lasts RPG sessions, I needed to work a little bit on maps, accurate time travel and stuff like that. So I watched maps carefully, did comparisons, calculations, trace roads. Eventually, I think about some things to be added to the site :

- a map which would be the combinaison between the general map (perhaps without names) and the border map : because I wanted to know where was a border and it was quite difficult to locate it exactly.

- a map with main roads between cities and towns, and more important the distances between them (like on a road map) :
In fact I only needed distances, but sometime it's important to know where the road goes or if there are major deviations... That's why I decided to trace the main road and to calculate the distance thanks to the distance chart of the web site (be carefull, various combinaisons of cities do not lead exactly to the same scale! -> average value). After that I applied a multiplication factor in order to take into account the terrain type (from 1.05-1.1 in plain til 2-3 in mountains). Then I wrote these distances on the map close to the road, and the result looks quite good. I would like to show you but... hum... I don't know how to do. :-\

Anyway... I'm not as strong as David to make nice maps with complicated tools ;). I didn't use layers and so now I can't change anything, and it's not a very pleasant solution. So I strongly suggest that it should be the next monthly spotlight. In other words, please David, if you can do that it would be great! :D
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on October 20, 2007, 12:35:10 PM
Hello Delbareth,

Why don't you email me what you have? Go to the Contact page (it's in the row of buttons along the top of the site). The email link is there. Use that. You can email it to me.

If it's a HUGE file, you can FTP it to me. is an interesting service for sending large files to people for free. That's another possibility.

But anyway, send me the file. I am planning a long range major update to the maps and want to incorporate as many good ideas as possible.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: sid6.7 on October 21, 2007, 02:51:13 PM
i think he wants a Rand Mcnalley atlas of khoras...   :o
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on October 21, 2007, 04:40:07 PM
I want to create Google Khoras (like Google Earth). But that's gonna require some serious programming... :)
Title: Re : Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on October 22, 2007, 10:57:32 AM
I don't know "Rand Mcnalley atlas" but I know "atlas" and, no  ;D that was not was I was thinking!  :D

About the Google Khoras, are you really sure it is possible? Because it seems to me that they "collect" info from a large number of different sources. It's as if rukemians, bathyns, and drakkellian send you painting of their countryside...
Title: Re : Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on October 25, 2007, 02:51:34 PM
If you want to do new versions of the maps, perhaps it could be useful that everybody write here their suggestion or mistakes they have found. I don't know when you want to do them, but after this work it will be to late to make remarks ;) So I propose that everybody take some time to look closely at these maps to dislodge all remaining problems.

Here is my first contribution :
- add a scale (but you are already aware of this problem)
- you speak about "Malus Mountains" in the text, but they are not mentioned on the map (only Ice Rock Mountains)
- Stormy Port is said to be Kitaran, but it's into Duthlem borders
- there is no trace of the city of Darkhaven (Duthelm) on the map, and Hammerfall is said to be nothwest of The Citadel (and placed at the west on the map)

Anybody else?
Title: Re : Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on October 26, 2007, 01:18:37 PM
I have found another thing : the towns of Haygen Keep and Gaurin are said to be on Rukemian territory, but on the border map they are in War Vale. I think there are probably other small mistakes like that, but it would appear clearly if you draw a map with both terrain/cities and borders.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Golanthius on November 06, 2007, 10:29:11 AM
I noticed a couple of things...
1) When you print the world map on 11x17 it is too small to read, can you make the maps bigger (say poster size 42 x 24)?
2) The town of Stormy Port appears to be in Duthelm not Kitar according to the border map.
Keep up the good work David...
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: tanis on January 13, 2008, 03:04:01 AM
If you did a Google Khoras I kind of think it would be cool if it was in complete in areas where Khorasians may not have maps like the poles and the space between Ithria and Aggradar the long way so that there could be hidden little islands or maybe even a continent or two.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 23, 2009, 11:22:14 AM
I'm working again on the map with road and distance. This time I'm doing the things properly (using differents layers for map, roads and distances) and all can be modified at will.
But... I have used the distance already calculated one year ago and now re-checked them. And it doesn't match! Did you change the scale of the continent (on the distance chart)? ??? It seems to me that all is nearly 2 times smaller... ???
Anyway, the work is going well and I hope to provide you a map in a month or two (depending of the time I can spend on). :)
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on April 23, 2009, 06:35:22 PM
No, I haven't changed the map in the last year. What's posted on the web site is "version 2" of the map which shows Aggradar and Ithria. I can't remember when I posted it online, but it's been at least 3 or 4 years now and the main world map hasn't changed in that time.

Coincidentally, I finally got around to printing out the map at full size (which is 41 inches by 29 inches) and had it framed. It's hanging on the wall in my gaming room right now.

Also, I have not abandoned the idea of an upgrade to the map. Every now and then I jot down a few notes and sketches that go into the map file. I am slowly gearing up to a complete overhaul of the map. Same continents and such, but more detail, layers, zoom, roads, etc. I want to incorporate as many ideas as I can in the next version.

Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 24, 2009, 12:12:41 AM
Ok, I know what is the problem!
I've just forgotten that you have used the old, few-used and odd unit of "miles" instead of a well-known, world wide and scientifically based unit of "kilometer" ;D. That's why it was 1.6 times smaller...
So, never mind :D
Title: Metric System (Was: Suggestion about maps)
Post by: avisarr on April 26, 2009, 08:40:09 AM
Well, as a matter of fact, as long as you brought it up... some of you may have notices that the word "kilometers" has been showing up along with "meters" and "liters" and other metric terms. I've been slowly migrating the entire web site over to the metric system. Meters instead of feet, kilometers instead of miles, etc.

This was a hard decision. The truth is that, as a work of fiction, Khoras feels more "authentic" if it uses archaic terms like fortnights and leagues and such. But it's a pain to have to deal with measurements like that. So miles and gallons and such feels more simple and normal.

However! I am one of the few Americans who really, REALLY believe that the US should convert to the metric system. I've been a long time advocate of the metric system and I think it's RIDICULOUS that the US hasn't made the change yet. I feel strongly enough about it that I've decided that Khoras is going to go metric. I'm sure that there are many people out there, mostly American gamers, who would say that I'm sacrificing the "flavor" of a medieval campaign setting. However, I think it's worth it. Yes, I am sacrificing a little bit of medieval flavor, but the metric system is important and I want to help push the US in the direction, in my own tiny little way. :)  So... Khoras is going metric. I'm sure those of you in Europe will be happy about that. And those in the US can adjust.

There are thousands of measurements scattered throughout the site and it's going to take a while to convert them all. But I'm working on it, converting things as I go. For the time being, the measurement system will be something of a mixed bag. But at least now you know that it's in a state of transition and you know where we're heading.

Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 26, 2009, 09:34:04 AM
I couldn't have imagined that! :D I'm very glad to hear such a thing! (and not only because I won't need to convert distances anymore ;)).

You know, I don't think anybody here or elsewhere can blame you! You are the Khoras' Creator and such decision owns to you (and people angry with your decision can create their own world from scratch :D)
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: tanis on April 27, 2009, 02:37:33 AM
Well I'm not going to lie I've always hated the metric system, not because it isn't well designed and useful, and not because I'm not fairly proficient in its use or because I am unwilling to use it on some principle, but because the slightly greater measurement accuracy of Imperial measurement's smaller increments for most measures is still preferred in extremely accurate measurements, though the measurements which require this sort of accuracy are not exactly common place, everyday jobs, but rather highly specialized circumstances and are admittedly not particularly well known or often seen outside a few fields.

However, I would never ask you to do something you disagree with, though I would like to suggest that maybe offering both measurements side by side in distance scales and such wouldn't be a bad idea, and would still allow you the freedom to use metric in your documentation, just so those persons who are somewhat sluggish thinking in yards (as a metric substitute for the less SI proficient) for on-the-fly calculations could at least have the choice to do their scale measuring for navigation in miles and such.

Not that you by any means should comply solely based on my suggestions, I simply think you might find it, upon consideration, a more balanced and equitable method, and simply state that you will do all your measurements and most of your documentation in metric, which would still require people to at the very least be able to convert from metric if not fully learn it if they intend to make good sense out of descriptions and examples used here on the site.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Golanthius on April 27, 2009, 02:31:52 PM
I agree with Tanis on this one. I think both measurements should be listed (example: 90 KM (55.92 miles)).

Having been raised on the US standard system, I am reluctant (even resistant) to learn another system.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 28, 2009, 08:31:30 AM
I notice something a little bit disappointing...
It deals with the position of the Merchant's Highway river. On the 1998' map, it reaches the sea in Asylum. Now it reaches the sea near Drakkel. We can then assume that the later version is the official...
In your Crystal Dominion campaign, you said the group book passage on the "Lady on the Water" to travel to Price. On the map the river is not very close to Drakkel but we can assume that they find it more confortable for the travel...
The question is : is this river in its final place?
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: olympian73 on April 28, 2009, 01:45:07 PM
Hey Mark,

Ever thought about inventing a measurement system that's specific to Khoras?  You could have the Khoras version and then a translation to metric and/or standard systems.  Maybe it's a version invented by magic users or a particular country or region?  Like currency or languages, different cultural regions would use different systems yet an overall Khoras standard would keep things in perspective.  Just an idea...

Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: tanis on April 28, 2009, 08:40:32 PM
Wow I'm jealous I didn't think of that!  :P

That's actually a great idea, and has more authenticity than using any Earth measures. It is a little harder, but I'd rather use Khoras measures for things than anything else. Different nations might even have different measures depending on their culture, which would be historically accurate for a world with medieval transportation and communication.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 29, 2009, 12:19:29 AM
How many of you use the names of the day and the names of the months? Who say during his game Landthrive instead of July for example... ???
If I say to my players "The next village is in more than 5 koraks". They will ask again and again what is the size of a "korak", and a "lak", and a "minak", etc...
I agree with David when he said that "fortnights" and "leagues" are already too complex... :-\
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: olympian73 on April 29, 2009, 04:29:29 PM
Did I say 'Mark' on the previous post?  I meant

Yeah, that's the drawback to Khoras specific measurements, currency, or languages.  If you have a million cultures you could have a million different ways of saying inch or centimeter or hour or minute.  It's truly how much effort and time one wants to invest. 
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on April 29, 2009, 07:43:07 PM
Wow, this topic has generated a lot of interest all of a sudden. :)

Olympian73: Yes, I have actually considered creating Khoras specific systems of measurement. I even have some notes around here somewhere regarding that and those notes involve several different systems for different geographic regions. You guys are right... to be absolutely realistic, the different cultures would each come up with their own measurement systems. However, I think that would put too much complexity in the game. Delbareth put it best... it's hard enough to keep track of an alternate calendar system and use the terms regularly. I think most gamers would probably find it frustrating and cumbersome to be using "koraks" and "minaks" and such for distance and weight. I know I would find that frustrating, especially if I had to remind my players what a "korak" was every 10 minutes. In my own game, I tend to use miles or kilometers just to keep it simple. Anyway, that's why I haven't posted a Khoras system of measurement. It's just a matter of keeping things simple.

I agree with you regarding which real world system to use. The best solution would be to present Khoras in both systems - metric and "US standard" (or whatever it's called). Any opinions on the best way to do that? I could just list both terms with one of them in parenthesis:  such as 27 miles (43.5 km). Or every measurement could be a link to a conversions page and... actually, no, that feels cumbersome. Probably the best solution is to just list both measurements right there in the sentence. I am open to suggestions. I want it to be easy to use for everyone.

And finally, Delbareth, yes, you are absolutely correct... the position of the river is not in its final place. The Merchant's Highway is going to pass directly through Drakkel and Drakkel's harbor is right at the mouth of the river. Asylum is going to sit at the mouth of a different river. These two changes are recent (within the last 2 years) and will be included in the next version of the map. I needed to shift those two major cities to the mouths of rivers (it just makes sense that they would be at river mouths anyway) and it helped with the current and previous campaign. I will definitely get the Drakkellian Alliance and surrounding regions tidied up a bit in the next version of the map. I actually have dozens of minor changes that are going to be put into the new map.

Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Delbareth on April 29, 2009, 11:05:14 PM
O, for putting both systems. But it means to change a lot of measures in the entire website... (don't forget the gp/pound and gp/kg ;))

About the new maps. Will they have exactly the same size than the previous ones. Because I'm doing a road map with tracks and distance (in km ;)) and I will send it to you as soon as I finish it. If the new maps have the same size, with city in the same place, we could use the tracks layers for them (with minor change for Drakkellian Alliance tracks). If not, well... it will still be useful on the "old" map. :-\
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on April 29, 2009, 11:27:25 PM
Will the new map be the same "size" as the old map? Yes, the size of the world isn't changing and the relative position of nations and cities will still be the same. So, the distance between Strathon and Tykron, for instance, will remain the same.

The new map will be larger only in the sense that you will be able to "zoom in" to a greater degree. It will involve more pixels and more details. But the world itself isn't changing significantly. Your work with the road system will still be very useful.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: Golanthius on April 30, 2009, 10:14:38 AM
Actually, if more people are using the metric system than the "Imperial" system (US standard). Then it makes sense that you would want to list your units of measure as such. As for the individuals such as myself, I can always convert the system to suit my game.

I noticed that all of the nations are in the metric system, so I say leave it like it is and continue to make the entire site one system.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: tanis on May 01, 2009, 02:39:53 AM
Well, I'm for km with miles in parentheses. I say miles in parentheses to show metric as the dominant system.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: olympian73 on May 02, 2009, 10:20:58 PM
I can see from a gaming perspective how addressing the different forms of distance would be frustrating.  I like the parenthesis idea as well as posted by Tanis.  Keep up the good work David!! 

Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: avisarr on May 03, 2009, 11:03:48 AM
Ok, it's decided then. It'll be both systems. Metric as the primary with the US standard system in parentheses. Such as...  97km (60.3 miles).

Thanks for the feedback on this. It helps. I'll work on cleaning up the measurement systems this month.
Title: Re: Suggestion about maps
Post by: tanis on May 04, 2009, 09:09:25 AM
No problem David, we just like watching Khoras evolve and grow.

And when we get to help that's not bad either lol.  ;)